Kate Fialkowski, IOD@Temple  0:02  
This is Kate Fialkowski with the Institute on Disabilities at Temple University. This is being recorded for the DisChange20 symposium online edition. We're discussing implicit bias. And this segment is a bit of a critical analysis. I'm delighted to have Elizabeth Clay, who is responsible for Content Strategies, Strategic Marketing and Communications at Temple University, and a disability advocate. Hey, Elizabeth, given all this going on, thank you so much for taking the time to be on this call today.

Elizabeth Clay  0:33  
Hi, Kate. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Absolutely. I'm excited for our conversation.

Kate Fialkowski, IOD@Temple  0:38  
Awesome. Hey, I gave your title but would you like to start this by just giving us a little background on who you are?

Elizabeth Clay  0:46  
Sure. So um, I am a disabled woman. And in Philadelphia, I work to help elevate disabled communities as primary audiences, particularly in the scope of work of marketing and communication. So by that I mean, helping them understand that they are just as equal an audience at, in Philadelphia, anywhere in Philadelphia, as anyone else.

Kate Fialkowski, IOD@Temple  1:14  
Awesome. So, um, what I thought we would do today, if it's okay with you is use your background. And then let's take a look at a movie that we've posted on the symposium website. And the two of us can chat about it, and the movie is called "The Interviewer." So does that sound good to you?

Elizabeth Clay  1:35  
That sounds great.

Kate Fialkowski, IOD@Temple  1:37  
So, the movie The interviewer, oh, first, I should mention to everybody, we were really pleased to be able to put this on our website. Thanks very much to BusStop Productions for allowing us to do that. "The Interviewer," this is, well, what do you think of it?

Elizabeth Clay  1:56  
I'm still thinking about it. And I think I'm going to be thinking about it for quite some time.

I think you first sent me the link to the movie, gosh, probably two months ago. And I think I've watched it five or six times at this point. And it just involves a lot of critical thinking, a lot of examining myself and my own thoughts and the work I do. So I particularly appreciate the opportunity to have this conversation today. I think it's a conversation we can have many times.

Kate Fialkowski, IOD@Temple  2:28  
I know! it's one of my favorite films, because there's so much to it. And it's only 15 minutes long. But you know, we could talk for days and days and days about this.

Elizabeth Clay  2:41  
Absolutely. There are many, many layers to it. And I think the more the more I was watching it, I just came came from it with so many questions and so many things I wanted to think about and you know, help continue those conversations.

Kate Fialkowski, IOD@Temple  2:59  
So, This movie The Interview where you talk about primary audiences, who do you think the primary audience for this movie is?

Elizabeth Clay  3:08  
That's a great question, Kate. Because I've been asking myself that the whole time and every time I watch it, I leave thinking that it's intended for a different audience every time I think, the first few times I watched it, I had kind of assumed that the movie was meant for people like me, someone who's disabled as well as other, you know, other people within disabled communities. But lately, I have also been exploring how it's a really great resource and conversation starter for people who are non disabled people who are employers, people who are employees, and those who do hiring so I really just think it touches touches all audiences.

Kate Fialkowski, IOD@Temple  3:52  
I do think it would be great for this to be like mandatory watching for HR people everywhere.

Elizabeth Clay  3:59  
I do too.

Kate Fialkowski, IOD@Temple  4:02  
So let's talk a little bit about the story.

Elizabeth Clay  4:04  
Sure.

Kate Fialkowski, IOD@Temple  4:05  
Do you think the central character of the story is?

Elizabeth Clay  4:10  
That's another great question. You know, I think I hold study that James is the central character so that -- The Interviewer -- that is the one thing that I've left, you know, thinking consistently every time I watch it.

Kate Fialkowski, IOD@Temple  4:26  
What a contradiction though, because the movie is called the interviewer and all of the advertisements are centered on Thomas Howell, the interviewee  

Elizabeth Clay  4:40  
Oh, I didn't know that.

Kate Fialkowski, IOD@Temple  4:42  
And so it's just such a contradiction that the title is the interviewer. But the interviewee is on all the advertising. What's up with that?

Elizabeth Clay  4:54  
I have no idea actually, that's very interesting and again, another, you know, critical conversation that we should probably be talking about for a while, I think that that also kind of plays into the many different narratives that are taking place within this short 15 minute movie.

You know, you have the narrative of James, and also of Thomas the interviewee. And so I think  I kind of see that shift at different points throughout the movie where you see the the change occurring for Thomas from the beginning of the movie to the end, kind of watching his shock when he realizes that James is the individual at that firm, who's going to be interviewing him and then kind of see his perspective and his biases change, by the by the end of the movie.

Kate Fialkowski, IOD@Temple  5:47  
Do you want to um, do you want to dig into that a little bit for your audience? Spoiler alert everywhere?

Elizabeth Clay  5:54  
Yes.

Kate Fialkowski, IOD@Temple  5:55  
So what do you think was like in the movie, this kind of pivotal moment for Thomas of his like enlightenment.

Elizabeth Clay  6:08  
Um, I think it was kind of twofold when when I, when I examine that I think that it was, you know, happening throughout the interview but I think a pivotal moment for many respects is when James's father enters the room and interrupts the interview and both Thomas and anyone who's watching this, watching the movie realize that actually James wasn't supposed to be wasn't supposed to be the interviewer that his father was.

Kate Fialkowski, IOD@Temple  6:41  
Well, when he when the character of Paul Dexter, who it's never mentioned is the Father.

When Paul Dexter enters the room, he yells at James for roleplaying as the interviewer and sends him back to his standard job, and the standard job that he has is supposed to be doing the refreshment trolley.What's up with that?

Elizabeth Clay  7:16  
Oh, there's so much happening in that moment. And I think it was really only a few seconds in the movie, and, and I kind of I kind of examine it from the perspective of, you know, Paul, the kind of father son relationship, the parent child relationship, the employer employee relationship. And so I think there's just so many different things happening at once here, but you just leave with so many questions.

Trying to understand the dynamic between the two of them because again, that's very layered as well and multi dimensional, and I think that I just left being like, Okay, well, we have sort of a power play going on here between a father and a son. But then also the questions like, Oh, well, I mean, from my perspective, it didn't occur to me at all until that moment that James was not supposed to be the interviewer that that wasn't supposed to be his role in the company. And I left being like, Well, wait a second, I had to pause it at that point and kind of take that all in and be like, I I don't understand. I don't understand why he's not supposed to be interviewing Thomas.

Kate Fialkowski, IOD@Temple  8:27  
So I think this is something that gets at our biases as viewers. Um At what moment in this short film, do we feel surprised? And I think that the, this surprise feeling that we have, maybe can point to our own biases. I that's kind of the place where we check our bias. So, for the character, Thomas Howell, he was surprised to be being led to the interview by James. And so that, you know, was really his surprise. But your surprise is the moment when James was sort of revealed as not the interviewer.

Elizabeth Clay  9:26  
Yes.

Kate Fialkowski, IOD@Temple  9:29  
Well, I think it's really something for everyone who's a watcher to kind of pay attention to where their own moment of surprise resides.

Elizabeth Clay  9:38  
Absolutely.

Kate Fialkowski, IOD@Temple  9:40  
Now, you mentioned Paul Dexter, his dad, boy, you know, in critical analysis, we look at power symbols of power. And Paul certainly seems to represent all symbols of power.

Elizabeth Clay  9:56  
There was a lot of shame happening in that moment and I was quite upse the first time I saw it.

Kate Fialkowski, IOD@Temple  10:01  
Yeah, because it seems so over the top didn't it?

Elizabeth Clay  10:04  
Absolutely. And unnecessary.

Kate Fialkowski, IOD@Temple  10:08  
Do you think there's anything in it that we should reflect on about the parent child relationship that you mentioned?

Elizabeth Clay  10:17  
I think that I think that's something that I'm I'm still considering and still contemplating as as one of the big takeaways from the movie for me. I think there was, you know, a lot of it was a power dynamic, a lot of it seemed to be um and again, this is just me exploring my thoughts about it. But I it seemed to be a little over the top in the sense that Paul seemed upset, but also a little embarrassed and was like, Oh, why is this happening again? And it was interesting to me because I just kept thinking about what conversations were happening.

And again, spoiler alert for the movie, but what conversations were happening in the moment that the interview ended. And then, you know, we kind of jump in time. And we see that that Thomas is now a full time employee there. Like what conversations were happening there too, because it it, it still felt a little bit to me like I was trying to hone in on what narratives we were seeing there. But it still felt like Parent Child narrative, and a little bit of shaming, which I did not like.

And then I really kind of wanted to see a follow up to understands how Paul and Thomas then welcomes James as an interviewer in the last scene, which I think I mean, the movie could be, you know, 10 hours long in order to accomplish that, but I want to I kind of, like wanted to dig into that a little bit more because there's so many things that could have happened, and so many, so many narratives playing a part in that conversation.

Kate Fialkowski, IOD@Temple  12:00  
Right. Well, we we are letting you know the the movie does give us a little detail that James was how old when he started working there?

Elizabeth Clay  12:11  
 16. And you've been there for 11 years?

Kate Fialkowski, IOD@Temple  12:14  
Yeah, I mean, so he'd been there a long time. He doesn't make you wonder if he was doing the food trolley truck for 11 years.

Elizabeth Clay  12:22  
That's what I wonder too. And I just that was a big internal struggle for me that anytime you hear that someone's been with a firm or company for 11 years, you think they have quite a bit of experience and actually, that James would be someone that you would choose to interview a new employee because just due to the length of time that he had working there and his experience so that that was I'm still thinking about that part that was very difficult for me,

Kate Fialkowski, IOD@Temple  12:50  
Right. And James does demonstrate it because he he understands this, this thing about the people who were coming through the door and he remarks that he was impressed by Thomas because he was quote, genuine, I think is the word that he used.

And, you know, it just makes it. You wonder a lot about all the dynamics that are going on in the company to.

Elizabeth Clay  13:18  
Absolutely, absolutely. And so was it. It was a strange moment because I'm just okay. I and again, I'm presuming here, I'm making assumptions, but it was like no one in the company, ever think to ask someone who had been there for 11 years, regardless of who he is to join in on the interview and to lead interviews? That's a long time to be at the same place.

Kate Fialkowski, IOD@Temple  13:43  
Right.

Well, I want to ask an important question. Were you satisfied with the ending?

Elizabeth Clay  13:54  
I struggle quite a bit with the ending.

I have watched the ending many, many times I always rewinded. And I struggle. Because again, like I, you know, I can't stress enough how many narratives and how many perspectives are happening in this just short 15 minutes.

But it felt a little bit as though there was this. I left feeling like okay well because Thomas thinks that Thomas' is mind was changed and that he thinks James is doing a good job. Now he now he can be in this role and now James can be interviewing people.

So I struggled with that a little bit much a little bit. It seemed as though like, oh okay, well we had to wait for someone else to to examine their biases and and change their perspective before James was considered worthy of running these interviews.

Kate Fialkowski, IOD@Temple  14:55  
Yeah, I mean, that's an important question in critical analysis is really who has the power of that pivot. Right? And that it required Thomas to be the intermediary for Paul. Yes, to be able to pivot. And you know, that's again, something for all of us to be able to examine when we're in a workplace setting whose voice really gets to be heard.

And if you're the voice who gets to be heard, how do you make room for for other voices?

Elizabeth Clay  15:32  
Exactly. And that was a big eye--. You know, I mentioned, I've taken a lot of notes every time I take this every time I watched the movie, and I think um you know, why? Who?  Who's in charge of being able to elevate James's perspective and James's voice within the firm?

Kate Fialkowski, IOD@Temple  15:53  
Right,

Elizabeth Clay  15:54  
And that was, that was tough for me. I haven't quite accepted that part yet.

Kate Fialkowski, IOD@Temple  16:02  
Well, all in all, you know, I think that Bus Stop films brought to us, you know, in 15, short minutes,

Elizabeth Clay  16:13  
Right.

Kate Fialkowski, IOD@Temple  16:14  
something that, again, I would just say could be used by HR people in almost any setting to really have a rich conversation about disability and diversity.

Elizabeth Clay  16:29  
Absolutely, I think.

Kate Fialkowski, IOD@Temple  16:32  
Yeah,

Elizabeth Clay  16:33  
I was just gonna say I think that it really is.  It's such a, it's a film that can start many conversations and foster quite a few conversations.

You know, and I think that examining our own biases are really difficult because we, we don't always acknowledge them. We don't see them. We don't know that we have them. But sometimes, but I think that this film is a great vehicle for being able to really do a lot of internal examinations for ourselves.

Kate Fialkowski, IOD@Temple  17:05  
Right. Well, I really appreciate being able to spend a little bit of time with you on such rich subject matter. We could go on for a really long time.

Elizabeth Clay  17:20  
Yes.

Kate Fialkowski, IOD@Temple  17:21  
But I do want to just be able to take a minute and switch gears completely

Elizabeth Clay  17:26  
Sure.

Kate Fialkowski, IOD@Temple  17:27  
I think it's only appropriate to address the moment that we're in, in the world today. And I just like to give you an opportunity if you have anything you want to say to our listeners in this specific moment in time.

Elizabeth Clay  17:44  
Gosh, I just, that's a great question. I just encourage everyone to hang in there. I hope that we're all taking care of ourselves. I know from my perspective, at least I've been this has been a great opportunity to -- You know, I'm home all day and at night to have important conversations.

Kate Fialkowski, IOD@Temple  18:06  
Thank you,

Elizabeth Clay  18:08  
of course.

Kate Fialkowski, IOD@Temple  18:09  
So, for listeners, thanks for hanging with us Siskel and Ebert, talking, talking about the film "The Interviewer" brought to us by Bus Stop Productions. And Elizabeth, again, thank you so much for taking the time to do this interview. I know that there's just a lot going on and I really appreciate you making the time for us.

Elizabeth Clay  18:35  
Thank you so much for having me.

Kate Fialkowski, IOD@Temple  18:37  
Thank you. Bye bye

Elizabeth Clay  18:39  
bye

Transcribed by https://otter.ai