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Eleanor Elkin chapter 1


Chapter 1: Childhood, Marriage and family (you are here)
Chapter 2: Children and Family Life
Chapter 3: Margot (daughter)
Chapter 4: Advocacy
Chapter 5: Inspirations and Reflections

transcript - entire interview

Eleanor Elkin Interview (Word)

transcript - current chapter

Chapter 1: Childhood, Marriage and Family

Lisa: Eleanor would you tell us your name please?

Eleanor: (01:04:59:27) My name is Eleanor Scott Elkin.

Lisa: And where were you born Mrs. Elkin?

Eleanor: I was born in Philadelphia in the Logan section.

Lisa: (01:05:13:24) What are some of your earliest childhood memories?

Eleanor: (01:05:17:14) It's hard to say what my early childhood memories are because some I remember because I was told. But I do remember one of my sister' boyfriends riding my kiddy car and breaking it. I must have been pretty small but I was very interested in her friends because they were older. My sister was ten years older than I and I adored her and I thought all these people that came are so interesting. I remember my grandfather and his name was Steven Manderson and he had been ill and came to stay with us for a brief time. And he was having difficulty walking. He didn't have a walker then. He learned to walk again by pushing my baby carriage. So I'm told. I of course don't remember it. But he walked me all over, he even found a farm somewhere near Logan. I guess that wasn't too hard then. And so we saw chickens and cows. He made friends with the children in the neighborhood and he would take us on trips. I do remember going down the river to I think it was called Riverview Beach. It's on the New Jersey side. And it had a merry-go-round and it had a beach. We would take our lunch and go there and we would have a nickel to ride the merry go round. He would give us an extra nickel to go get ice cream and we would come home. He was a very interesting gentleman. I'm not sure what he did for livelihood because when he would get better he would disappear. I know he went to Saratoga so I suspect he had a gambling streak. Maybe that's why I like horses now. We would send my brother and sister and I we would get a huge rolled up package every once in a while and they were funny papers. Comic books were not around and the different papers had different comics. And oh boy when new would get that big roll of comics we were in heaven. It was great fun. And on my birthday I would get a five dollar gold piece. Now that was a lot of money. My father would put it in a bank account for me so I had a bank account practically all my life. Other things I remember about my childhood are we lived in Logan and the house had steps leading to an enclosed porch which was the way we went in. We would play games on those steps and whisper down the lane and various games on the steps. I remember that- I don't know why they liked our steps better than the others but they seemed to like our steps a lot. And that was fun. I'm running out of things from my early childhood. Is that enough I hope?

Lisa: (01:08:45:09) So Eleanor you mentioned your very lovely grandfather and you mentioned a sister. I wonder if you can tell me who the other members of your family were?

Eleanor: (01:09:15:27) Well there was my younger sibling was my brother Bob who- my sister was 10 years older than I and he was 6 years older. I was the baby. He was old enough when I was born, he was in school, and he would come home and meet me when I came home for lunch or whatever. So they tell me about my birth. Oh you know what I looked like which apparently was pretty bad. So I was so little they could put my head in a tea cup. So in case you wanted to know what's wrong- it started at birth. But they were both fun. My sister, I mentioned and I adored her, and she used to make up projects and do work with me and we'd do doll house stuff together and paper dolls together and design dresses. And Bob was the main tormentor. He liked to tease me. But he never hurt me or anything- he liked to tease me. And he went off on his baseball, he had important things to do like baseball with the kids in the neighborhood. We lived on a street that had four corners and that was where the baseball field was and I'm sure other neighborhoods around did the same thing. My sister began to date and that was pretty exciting and my brother-in-law who was one of her early boyfriends, from high school time even, often teased me about how I used to put my sticky hands on what he called his boiled shirt when he was dressed up to go to a dance. Cause he used to play with me and he was tall and slender and he would make a seat with his hands and I could sit on it and he could swing me between his legs. I thought he was just the best boyfriend she could possibly have. That's things I remember particularly about Margaret who became you know- she was my sister and my friend all my life. We stayed together. We didn't live in the same place. She lived in New Jersey and I lived in Pennsylvania but we always were together and our families were friends which were very nice.

Lisa: (01:11:53:18) Can you tell me a little bit about your parents, Eleanor?

Eleanor: (01:12:08:04) My parents- they were wonderful parents. My father was a builder. He built schools and hospitals; big buildings not houses. My mother was a stay at home person she was not employed at any time. She was employed before they were married and she was very proud because she was a college graduate. She graduated from Philadelphia Normal School and that was quite an achievement and she was then certified to be a teacher. She taught sewing in Philadelphia schools and was very, very clever at designing things. She could get a piece of material and wrap it around and make a dress out of it. I never could do that but she did teach me to sew for which I was very grateful. I didn't like it when I was little because she made me do what they call samplers. You've seen pictures of them- they're still doing them and it was no fun. But at least I learned how to do basting and over-casting and blanket stitch and so forth, which was useful later. It was great that she could do that because we could design clothes and I could have something that I couldn't have bought in the shop, which was wonderful. And my father was very supportive of most everything. When I got in trouble and I was sent to my room sometimes at supper time when I couldn't have any supper- of course I always got it somehow but he would come home from work and he would come up the back stairs- back stairs are wonderful, they don't have many of them anymore they are so nice. He would come up the back stairs and come into my room with goodies and say how are you, you know, what are you doing in bed. And he would help me make peace. One day he came in and I was sick and I was sitting up in bed- you know they used to make you go to bed when you were sick- they don't anymore. So I had been put to bed and he came up and he said, "feel in my pocket" and I felt something soft and he put his hands in and he brought out a little white puppy. We named her Fluffy, she was an Eskimo Spitz. And my joy you know- but that was the type of thing my father did but always supported me all my life. All my life he was always there for me and so was my mother. Not that we didn't have disagreements- every family does but they were never serious disagreements. I always knew that I could count on them. I never worried that I'd hear about crashes in stock markets and people not having enough to eat. I never worried about it and I guess we did have hard times but it never affected my life I always felt secure. That's an accomplishment for parents to do I think. I think about it now and I thought I guess we weren't kind of hard up. My father lost his business and he found some work here and there. He always managed to do it in construction so eventually you know he got back up but in that time mother never made us feel- you know she never said you can't do this or that we haven't any money. I never heard that. She always had some tucked away somewhere. They were great parents I was very fortunate.

Lisa: Thank you. They sound like wonderful parents.

Eleanor: Yeah, they were.

Lisa: How would you describe your childhood?

Eleanor: Happy, naughty- a very good childhood. Lots of opportunities, friends, neighbors. Was that enough?

Lisa: Absolutely. Do you remember when you were a little girl what your hopes and dreams were for the future did you know what you wanted to be or do?

Eleanor: Well I've changed my mind several times. One time- well I was quite young and I was going to get married and I was going to have a farm full of animals. And another time I was going to be a veterinarian and I never thought I was going to be a teacher or anything like that. That sounded terrible to me. That was a fate worse than death if you had to be a teacher; because my mother was always pushing it. But I always wanted to have- they used to ask what do you want for your birthday and I'd say a lamb and a bear. And I wasn't talking about a stuffed animal. I wanted the real thing. Of course, I never could have it and I knew that but that's what I wanted. So I always liked animals and I really wanted to do something with animals. I never did but when I was little that was the way I thought about growing up.

Lisa: Can you tell me a little bit about Mr. Elkin?

Eleanor: Oh, he was wonderful. Phil- my husband was a very fine man. He was fun he was very firm. When I married him I thought I was marrying a big shoe tycoon. His father had a shoe factory and they made high style ladies' shoes. Very expensive "$19.95" they were very, very expensive. And beautiful, beautiful so I always had my shoes [laughs]. But the war Phil decided for a number of reasons that he was not going to be a shoe tycoon and he went back to college on the G.I. bill. He had quit in his junior year at Lafayette because the time- the economy was low and he said I'm not learning anything here that I can go out and get a job tomorrow. He was helping in the student place where they went in to get jobs. He looked at the best job he could find and put himself in it and it was a great job it was pushing stock in Woolworth's in New York where his mother lived. And so he did that for a while and then his father said enough of this, if you're going to be outside come and learn the business. So he made him learn to make shoes from the ground up. He made him go to leather factories to learn about tanning, he went to learn about dyes, he learned about cutting, he learned about lass and how you put a shoe with the leather on the lass to make a shoe. He had to go through every one of those and then he sent him out on the road to sell after he had learned to make a shoe. I met him when he was just starting out on the road and I always said his father sent him out on the road to get him away from me- I don't think that was true [laughs]. But he went from that to deciding that he was going to do some work in insurance because his father had a fancy trust, his father had died at that point it was after the war and Phil said if he's going to learn how to do about this trust and save the family business and so forth, he better learn something about it. He went to Penn on the G.I. bill and took some courses in business. And they convinced him that he should stay in the field and be a professor and teach for them; which he did. It was actually a very good thing because he then continued- he had gotten- he had finally graduated from Lafayette 15 years after he started. On the G.I. Bill. And then he was at Penn so he took his masters and then his P.H.D. at Wharton School which was- by that time we had children. I took the kids to his graduation which was kind of fun. I'm not sure they thought so but I did. He continued as a professor and he was- I know I've met students and sometimes I had them in my house lots of times. But later when they were not his students when they had graduated they would say he was a tough professor. He was the toughest one I ever- I think they either loved him or they transferred. He was tough. He demanded them- you know, not perfection but to do the work. If they came in unprepared he made them leave and that wasn't nice so he made some enemies. He said learning's painful. I still hear from students and I have two that take me out to dinner every so often- separately. They know each other but they live different lives. It's very nice. It's very nice to hear from them at my old age.

Lisa: Well it speaks to your husband's legacy.

Eleanor: You never know who's life you are touching.

Lisa: Do you remember the first time you saw Mr. Elkin?

Eleanor: Oh sure [laughs]. I was- I had a heavy date on Saturday night. Friday, I went to the hairdressers and that was when they set our hair in pin curls- you probably wouldn't know about pin curls. [To Lisa] You do know about pin curls. I had a head full of pin curls and that gooey stuff they put on and I wouldn't let her comb me out because I had this heavy date the next day and I didn't want it to be all out of curl. And I knew how to comb it so I had a head full of pins and a bandana and I had been to work but I didn't want to get anything on my work clothes so I had on what you would call a housedress. So I came home- I had sneakers on, bobby socks, and a house dress- oh I was great. My friend and her boyfriend and Phil were sitting in my living room at my mother's house- where I lived and they wanted a fourth for bridge. So, we played bridge. And I was kvetching and I thought he seemed like a nice guy but I didn't pay too much attention to it. He asked me afterwards for a date, I don't know why. But it went on from there but that was when I met him in my own house and it was just great I mean he liked me. Apparently I played bridge okay. It just went on from there I continued to date other people, I wouldn't go steady and not all my friends did- now you know you have one boyfriend and that's life or death- not then, not then. It was much more fun. Of course you always had the problem if somebody was going to ask you out on Saturday. But it was fun.

Lisa: What did Mr. Elkin look like?

Eleanor: There's a picture of him right there.

Lisa: You tell me.

Eleanor: Oh he was really very handsome and especially in his shoes. That's one that was taken at what is now Philadelphia University. He was quite good-looking. His mother was very attractive, his father wasn't. His father looked a little like Adolph Menjou. But she was a beauty- his mother was a beauty. She had been in show business, not any big parts but she earned a living in show business. Phil had been in a couple of minor things I have a couple of photographs, I think I still have them, that were his publicity photographs when he was like 14. He learned to drive a car while they were in Hollywood. Apparently you didn't need a license in those days in Hollywood. They rented a car and Phil did the driving. He was 14, but he was big. He wasn't extra tall he was just barely 6 foot. 11 and a half inches or something like that. But tall enough that he looked pretty manly even as a kid. But he really was handsome. I'll have to dig out an early photograph for you.

Lisa: What kind of a father was Mr. Elkin?

Eleanor: Phil was a very good father to my children. Richard was the first one we had and when we were bringing him home from the county office where we went to pick him up, unexpectedly, we were walking down the street- we lived in Doylestown and we could go from the juvenile court office to our house it's only about three blocks. So we were walking and he was carrying Richard who was waving and bobbing around. He was two months old and he was pre-mature and Phil said, "give you odds, he's not right." And he said but it doesn't matter. He doesn't remember ever saying it. He never remembered but I remembered and it gave me courage. It made me think okay Phil's going to help me and he did. And we were offered- we had the opportunity to send him back. Small town- there's a lot of talk and of course it went around that this Elkin kid sure was funny looking. And I didn't know at the time because I didn't know enough- only my sister had babies. I never thought about development. It wasn't anything I was interested in- I was interested in boys at that time. I wasn't interested in babies although I babysat a lot and I loved it I liked to babysit. But no I said you don't send babies back, you don't turn them in like cars you know. We had had him then probably about two weeks and by then he was my son. He wasn't at first; he was this doll that arrived. I didn't have any maternal feelings and I thought [there] must be something wrong with me. I thought I would have this great gush of "oh I'm a mother." Well it didn't happen until I had had him for a little bit and then there was no doubt- there was no doubt. And no way were they going to get him back. I'll roll up my sleeves and go-. So he stayed with us and Phil was very helpful. He did the 2 o'clock feeding! Because I would be tired and if I don't get my sleep I'm not a happy creature. I'd nudge him and say Jim it's 2 o'clock and he would get up and feed Richard and then put him back in the crib and come back to bed. And he did that until Richard didn't need the two o'clock feeding. By that time Margot arrived. Well when he saw Margot, Phil was at college doing something and one of his friends who were doing some typing for us went with me up to pickup Margot at the same place. Well she was the exact different. She was a bouncing, beautiful child and just full of it. When Phil saw her I was changing her. We had a bassinette that had a metal top, an aluminum top, and she was banging her heels and hitting the thing with a rat-a-tat-tat-tat-tat. And Phil thought that was great and he sang to her "little girl you're the one girl for me" which was a popular song at the time. He liked to sing in a pretty good voice and he was very supportive of the kids. Now, he wouldn't stand any nonsense. They knew if daddy said "no" you better pay attention. He never whipped them or anything like that but he scared the- he scared them! Just with his voice and his mannerisms they towed in right away they didn't want to be on the wrong side of daddy. The only time he ever touched them, we had the children- the house we lived in Doylestown was an old Victorian twin and had been made into two apartments. So the first floor was rented and we let it stay rented and we lived on the second and third and the kids were up on the third floor and they were told that they must never hang out the window. Well we had- you know windows were different they had pull-out screens, you've probably seen them and in the summer we put those up because getting ones to fit were difficult and you had to have somebody climb up to the third floor it was very expensive. And Phil had parked the car in the back and was coming out the side street, we lived on the corner, and out comes the screen and almost hits him and two kids are leaning out the window. He came in right up to the third floor and he made them lean over the bed and he whacked each one on the bottom. Well they screamed and carried on something terrible but they didn't know about child abuse, unfortunately. They would have been right away to the- and that's the only time he ever touched them. And he said I saved your life you nearly made me have a big accident and they never did that again I assure you. That's the only time he ever touched them, other than hugging them.

Lisa: Eleanor what is your favorite memory of your husband?

Eleanor: My favorite memory of my husband. Oh gosh, I'd have to think about that a while I don't know what's my favorite memory of my husband I have many. I remember dancing with him I remember riding- we used to takes rides in the country. Just to take a ride, you know you used to do that. Nobody does that anymore are you out of your mind gas costs too much. But we'd go out, take a ride and then stop and have lunch or something then come back home and we'd pass a beautiful place mainly a hillside; with animals of course does that sound familiar? And I'd say oh look at that isn't that beautiful? And he'd say yeah someday baby, someday. It was always someday. When he- when we bought our place, our second home in Vermont, which was his sixtieth birthday present of him. His birthday to me- he gave it to me. We looked at each other and we said "someday." Now those are precious memories, well I don't have a favorite I don't think. Lots of good ones. Lots of good ones.

Lisa: Would it be all right if I asked you how Mr. Elkin died?

Eleanor: How did Mr. Elkins die? He had diabetes and complications from diabetes. It was- when we moved here in 1988- the end of 88' he was saying, "I'm losing my happy home" and I said no you've got a new happy home. And he kept saying I won't be here and he kept saying it off and on had been saying it for a couple of years. I won't be here for this, I won't be here for that. And he was not that old. And I finally said I'm tired of hearing this just how long do you think you're going to live? He said about 2 years, he'd [leave] 2 and a half. And we moved here because I knew I was going to need more help with him and I knew this was a place that I could get help where I needed it. Actually he stayed in the apartment with me until six months before he died. His last six months he was down in our nursing area and he fell so many times and he was a big man I couldn't pick him up. I used to get one of the security guards to come up and help but it was getting too difficult and we had to take him off to the hospital after one of them and when he came back from that he went right into the nursing section. He was not happy in there but he knew he needed it. But I was with him all the time and I learned where everything was in the cabinets I knew where the clean sheets were, I knew where everything was and if they weren't taking proper care of him I was out on the floor saying [?] you better come in here, he needs you. They respected me and I mean yeah we got along okay. But he got so he couldn't speak and I that was very difficult I mean such a brilliant mind; he was a very brilliant guy. He could not his head he could squeeze my hand. The only time he ever spoke, and this is one of my favorite memories of course I treasure; I used to go down and stay with him you know after dinner and til it was time to put the light out and I said goodnight sweetheart I love you. And he looked up at me and he said, "Goodnight sweetheart I love you." Those were the only words he had spoken for months and he never spoke again. But I treasure those. That's a happy memory.

Lisa: Eleanor, this will be hard to put into words perhaps but I'm going to ask anyway. What did Mr. Elkin mean to you?

Eleanor: What did my husband mean to me? Everything. He was my husband. He was my life. I had some friends here who said you really should put him down in the nursing section. I'd say no I won't do that; he's my husband. He meant a great deal to me and I miss him. I talk to him [?] and say why aren't you here for this, I need you. And every once in a while I give myself a memory hug and feel better about life. Yeah I miss him. He meant a lot. He was my love. He was my lover and my husband.

Lisa: Eleanor, I wanted to ask you about your children.

Eleanor: You would like to know about Margo and Richard. Richard was the first one. I think I mentioned that. And uh, you want to know about his whole life from babyhood on or his more recent life?

Lisa: How about... how about when you first brought Richard home. Let's talk about when you first brought Richard home.

Eleanor: When I first brought Richard home I was at a loss. I mentioned our walk down the street so I won't do that again. I had no crib. I had no clothes. Nothing because I didn't know he was going to arrive that day or any other day. I knew he had been born and I knew he had not been well in the preemie nursery and I didn't know if I was ever going to see him. And I said I still want to. They said, "But he's sick," and I said, "but I still want to see him." And of course they gave him to us. So I got out a bureau drawer, I had a large antique bureau in one of the rooms and it had big wooden drawers and I put a pillow case in it, sheets, a pillow case and some small things and he came with one change of clothes. And so, he was all right with diapers for a little while but the county was really nice. They came down and knocked on the door and handed me a bundle of beginning things, which helped. He was no, he really was not hard to care for at that time. We called him the weaver and bobber because he never, he couldn't sit straight. He was always weaving. And uh, but we bathed him in a big dishpan on the table and it worked. He didn't mind. He wasn't hard to take care of. He uh, he didn't talk for a very long time. He sucked his thumb which would make him go "ouiee ouiee ouiee" because the thumb in his mouth. And he used that as sort of expression. We took him out in the carriage and walked him around town proudly but people kind of didn't know what to say except, "he's looking better". He did go to school. In the first class for trainable children in Doylestown. That's another story but he went to that first class and he got along fine. Had a good time, made friends, loved the teacher and her mother who was her aid, Ms. Dawson and Ms. May. And he was in that class for several years, well, probably six. Anyway we moved to Reading eventually. I think there was another interval but not important. And he went to another school where he had some difficulties because they didn't believe he was more able than he was. He had by then he was talking and he had a vocabulary, which was surprising. For example, one time Margot wanted to make a cake and so I had cake mix and so forth and she was working on it. It was wonderful and we had it for dinner. And Richard said, "Margot, this is a very good cake. It's delicious and you used excellent ingredients." I wrote it down I was so surprised. Excuse me I'm going to cough. (Coughs) Because I was not aware that he used those words. I guess he used some before but we never talked baby talk to him and so he just picked up words that we said. So did Margot. She did it in a different way. She would say, she had very good speech. She spoke early and spoke well. But she would say things strange like "mato" instead of tomato and "moatmeal". I kept thinking, "why does she say those wrong?" and then I realized she was hearing what we said. We said tomato. Mato. Tomato. Mato. So she said mato. Mato. And moatmeal was "have some oatmeal". You see how Philadelphians slide things? Other than that, I remember those two incidence I mean those two words particularly. She spoke very clearly and was quite physical too.

Eleanor: I didn't have to worry about her falling out of bed. She would climb out so finally I just put the side down. I left the side up for Richard because he would stand up and shake the crib and dance. I was afraid he would fall out and he probably would have. And so it wasn't until I felt secure with him and then I got him a junior bed. He didn't fall out because he was bigger then. He knew that if he rolled and fell on the floor he would get up and get back in bed. But when he was smaller I had to keep him more confined. Margo, I had to keep when we had a front porch in Doylestown we were on the corner as I mentioned. The house was practically on the street. We had a tiny winy postage stamp little yard in front. I would get them out there. I had a playpen for Richard and a chez that Margo liked to sit in and we had a little dog and if I wanted to go in to get the phone, or whatever, I couldn't leave them. I could leave him but I couldn't leave her. She was like lightening. She would have been across the street flattened by a car so I had a harness on her and a dog chain. Big chain that I used to have in the back yard that I used when I let the dog out. I had a circle on a wire and I'd place one end of it on the dog and let him go and he could run up and down the length of that wire, big heavy wire. But I put it on her. I brought it over, wrapped it around the post. I remember I was mentioning that with my grand daughter when she was here and she said, "Ahhh. You put my mother on a chain! Horrors, horrors." Later when she had a little boy who was grease lightening, she had him on a leash. Wasn't a big chain, but a leash. But Margot, I have a picture of her sitting there, quite happily, looking at a book with her legs crossed with a big chain on. (Laughs). We did everything together. I had just one coach but I had one of them sitting in the front of the coach and one of them sitting in the back. It worked pretty well until one time I went into a bakery in town and I left them outside and I said, you know, "be quiet" and the next thing I know the coach was upside down. Margo had decided to get out. She didn't get out because she was fastened but she was in the end and was hanging over and the whole thing tipped. So I had to be very careful. I never did that again. I never left them. They had to go in the store with me. That was the only time we had any trouble doing everything together. We went on trips, they both went. We had a birthday party, they both went. Somebody said, "oh it's so difficult to take care of two." It isn't once you get passed that 2:00 feeding and I was already passed it when Margot came. So we didn't have that problem. I had two high chairs. You pick up the spoon. They each have their own. You put a spoonful in one mouth and a spoonful in the other mouth, you know? Worked fine. They were company for each other. Do you want to know more about them?

Lisa: (01:50:07:15) I do. Absolutely. I want to know if I can take you back to two things that you said earlier in our conversation. At one point, you said Mr. Elkin, you said Mr. Elkin describing Richard as not seeming quite right and you also said people noticed Richard in the baby carriage and said, "well he looks better". Can you describe Richard when you first met him and when you first brought him home?

Eleanor: Well he has short up... Richard when I first met him had short upper eyelids, still did at his death, and so that he never closed his eyes tightly without great effort. He could close them but in his relaxed position, they never closed. It gave him a tip look. People would say, "oh he's down syndrome" or you know, "oh he's a Mongolian idiot" was one of the favorite terms they used for Down syndrome which is a terrible term. I would say, "No, he isn't" because he didn't have any of the other characteristics. And actually his eyes were not like Down syndrome. They were just his own short eyelids. He was very thing because he was a preemie. He weighed, uh, at two months he weighed 7 lbs. and that's when I got him. And of course we fed him. Bill gave him his 2:00 bottle and he did gain weight. I think that first picture you may have seen or somebody did, I have it there, is me holding Richard when he was probably a month more old- maybe three months old there. Two and a half. But he was you know, he had fat cheeks and began to fill out. He used to, he loved music and he would dance because there was always music in my house because Phil liked music and Phil played instruments. He would get his instrument out and I would play the piano which was pretty bad but I could fake it. The kids would like that. Yes.

Lisa: (01:52:23:21)- So when did you first realize perhaps Richard wasn't a typical child?

Eleanor: We were dealing with it of course, not like we probably should have, kind of denying. But after Margo arrived on the scene it was obvious. I mean she was younger by four months and she was so far ahead if him that it was, you couldn't kid yourself. So I took him, both of them, actually I had been taking him, both to a pediatrician. Just started. I got the names of the pediatrician that had been at University when he was born and his wife, the doctor's wife, was also a pediatrician. They practiced together. The were then just starting, sort of, and they were in West Philly so we went down to see them and they confirmed, of course, that Richard had a problem and made some suggestions and helped us, you know, with dealing with him. They were very, they were wonderful pediatricians. Margo bounced along her own merry way. They both, you know, they'd go to the doctor together. At one point Margo was more of a problem at the doctor than Richard because they wanted to give her a shot. She was not about to have it and she kicked the pediatrician and she was pregnant and I was frantic. Anyway fortunately it didn't hurt her. I guess it wasn't that bad a kick. So I had to bribe her that if she was a good girl and got her shot, I would get her a pair of roller skates. So she got her roller skates a bit early. She could handle them. Of course I didn't let her go beyond the boundaries of where we lived. As I said, she was physical. She could do all the physical things.

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